(school in general wasn’t your strong suit was it John?)

Tim asked: “Why do you and others like to protest something that you dont believe exists?”

I’m always amazed when theists think this way. We (atheists) don’t protest something we believe doesn’t exist. We protest humans who use religion to further some political agenda.

I.D./creationism is the PERFECT example! If we just ignored this movement (we don’t believe it, right?) they would get their way and get this religious idea into SCIENCE class! This is why atheists care… if we didn’t the theists (not just christians but ALL theists) would inject their religious beliefs into everything!

Oh – and like Craig I do charity work. Lot’s of “free-thought” organizations do – but like Craig said they don’t publicize it.

While I think the two of us could go back-and-forth with scientific discoveries that support both of our points, I don’t believe that gets to the heart of the matter.

Let me first state very clearly it is not strictly Christianity I have an issue with, it is theism in total. It may seem from some of things you’ve read that I have a particular bent toward Christianity. I do not. It just so happens that Christianity is the form of religion I’m most familiar with having been brought up with a Christian background but I’m an equal opportunity disbeliever.

If you have read any of my other posts you may be able to tell that I’m a bit of a Star Trek fan. I remember many times as a child around the age of 10 being faced with moral problems like any other 10 year old. I also remember thinking to myself, hmm, what would Capt. Kirk do. I always felt that Capt. Kirk led a fair, moral and righteous life. Having Capt. Kirk as a role model seemed to work out pretty well for me as a child but even as a child I realized Capt. Kirk wasn’t real. I realized as a child that sometimes we can find good moral grounding in fictional characters.

This brings me to Jesus. If you feel that believing in a fictional savior has helped you straighten out your life and put things in order, great! I’m glad you were able to find a system that works for you and has led you to live a happy and fulfilled life. You mentioned all the turmoil that you went through before finding religion. Well Tim I’ve been an atheist since I was a child yet I’m not a druggie, I’m not a drinker and I’ve never been a womanizer. By your way of thinking my “lack” of morality should have led me down a much different path. It didn’t because I didn’t need religion to provide me with my sense of morality. I had Capt. Kirk.

I take umbrage with your assertion that charitable deeds are never under taken by atheists. I submit for the most part, it’s because they’re not attention seeking, limelight loving people who are putting on a pretense to make it into heaven. I would be willing to bet that a vast number of atheists do in fact do charitable deeds.
I myself do a tremendous amount of charitable giving, I always try to do it anonymously. Why do I do it anonymously you may ask. It’s because when I do it I want make sure I’m doing it for the right reason. I’m not doing it so God and my fellow parishioners can see, I’m doing it because I think it’s the right thing to do and I don’t need to garner attention to make myself feel better about it.
I pay for the private education of an under privileged child, anonymously. I donate thousands of dollars worth of Christmas gifts and Christmas food every year to needy families, anonymously. I subsidized the college tuition of an abused young girl so that she could go to school, anonymously. Look, I could go on but I think I’ve made my point. I’m an atheist and I’m a good person.
You mentioned that you don’t make fun of atheists. In general I don’t make fun of Christians. I do however make exceptions for people like Ray Comfort for example. Ray is someone who I believe uses intellectual dishonesty to further his cause. You may be aware he is about to re-release On the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin. It might interest you to know that in his rerelease he chose to delete four chapters. Now if this book truly supports his belief, and I don’t believe it does, why delete four chapters. Plain old simple dishonesty.

To answer your final question I can put it simply in a few sentences. I’m not protesting the existence of God. I’m protesting the use of God by earthly beings to further political and global causes that pose a threat to truly peaceloving people. I don’t oppose God I oppose religions. And never forget this is a freethinking forum if people don’t like what is said here they don’t have to read it.

Just remember Tim in the end, whether it’s Jesus or Capt. Kirk, it doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that we all learn to get along.

Christians teach that there are morals, that gives people guide lines to live a happy lives with out all the vises they had as non believersas as well changing there eternal addresses .We help in national disasters and in local areas such as feeding the homeless and helping the needy with clothes and heat and electric bills,we give tithes to help with this.

I have never seen a atheist group do any of these things, usally I see just a battle of wanting God out of the picture!

I personally dont make fun of atheist. I have compassion for your group as well as any non blevievers,So wouldnt it a better ideal to take all the time we waisted on proving that something is or isn’t true and do something useful to people who need our help some how?

My question for you is this…in all my days of running on my own I never cared about what christians thought or if anyone else believed in any kind of god,,Why do you and others like to protest something that you dont believe exists?? Peace, Tim

Tim, James Madison also wrote this wrote,
” The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state.” [James Madison, 1819, in Boston, Why The Religious Right is Wrong about the Separation of Church and State]

And this…

“It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom…. We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov.” [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

Thomas Jefferson also wrote,

“Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.” Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817

And this…

“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

And this…(my personal favorite)

“Every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of god.” Thomas Jefferson, arguing that Chrisian exclusivism (via the idea of an exclusive revelation) degrades the credibility of the Christian religion, in a letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823

Tim, I could go on but why? I don’t need the words of men who lived over 200 years ago in an age before the advent of microbiology, genetics, computer science, etc. , to convince me of my convictions. I hold the truth that there is no God to be self evident.

P.S. Sounds to me like our nations fathers had it right some of the time.

Non Believe does not negate reality!

Our Country was founded on Christian beliefs,

James Madison wrote,

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

Thomas Jefferson:

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”

John Adams,

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

George Washington,

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus
Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
“To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more
distinguished character of Christian” [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

Sounds to me like our nations fathers had it right.

Duh, Angels!